Question about light clocks

[CANGAS]

cinci: Just because some philosopher says the premise is empty doesn't mean that it is. There are no "huge gaps" gaps in Einstein's chain of logic. You accused me of resorting to authority a while back and you are up to your neck in authoritative statements here. His "logic" was not built soley on experimental results. His logic was purely mathematical and as logical as Euclid's. The only premise is the postulate of relativity. From there forward there are no "gaps". You dismiss Einstein's approach as if there were some other way. Can you cite an example of scientific achivement that came from another method?
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No huge gaps?

What if I could direct you to words that sprang up from Einstein's own hand, that perfectly contradict his Postulate (that light is observed to have the constant speed every time its speed is measured)?

In Einstein's exposition of Relativity Of Simultaneity we read of a Rider On The Train who has measured his location with his own hand-carried yardstick and knows that he is standing exactly at the middle of the car. The author winks at us and grins and tells us that He knows that the lightning strikes are really simultaneous. Yet, the lightning strike light flashes travel across equal distances but land upon the Rider's eye at different moments. The lightning strike flash light has come from the East in less time than the lightning flash light has come from from the West.

When something travels across the same amount of distance in a different amount of time than another something, we rely on bedrock basic logic and say that one of the somethings went faster than the other.

If the Postulate were true, the Rider would have detected the lightning strike flashes simultaneously, since they would have maintained the same constant identical speed in getting to him from the lightning strikes which were really simultaneous .

[cincirob]

CANGAS: No huge gaps? What if I could direct you to words that sprang up from Einstein's own hand, that perfectly contradict his Postulate (that light is observed to have the constant speed every time its speed is measured)?

cinci: Direct me to anything you wish. The postulate is where he starts. What I said was the logic that follows it has no huge gaps.
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CANGAS: In Einstein's exposition of Relativity Of Simultaneity we read of a Rider On The Train who has measured his location with his own hand-carried yardstick and knows that he is standing exactly at the middle of the car. The author winks at us and grins and tells us that He knows that the lightning strikes are really simultaneous.

cinci: If "He" is the rider on the train, he doesn't tell him that at all. He tells you, the reader, that the strikes are simultaneous for the observer in the station who is not on the train and he tells you why they are simultaneous for him. The purpose of the thought experiment is to decide if the stirkes are simultaneous for the rider. And even if you think he told the rider they are simultaneous for the rider, then the rider will conclude he is wrong.
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CANGAS: Yet, the lightning strike light flashes travel across equal distances but land upon the Rider's eye at different moments. The lightning strike flash light has come from the East in less time than the lightning flash light has come from from the West.

When something travels across the same amount of distance in a different amount of time than another something, we rely on bedrock basic logic and say that one of the somethings went faster than the other.

cinci: Your basic bedrock logic is wrong. If you ask the rider to measure the speed of light from each of the two sources he will find that both are c. That probably violates your bedrock basic logic also, but it is what the postulate requires and it has been experimentally verified.
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CANGAS: If the Postulate were true, the Rider would have detected the lightning strike flashes simultaneously, since they would have maintained the same constant identical speed in getting to him from the lightning strikes which were really simultaneous

cinci: The postulate is true as that fact is demonstated by every measurement of the speed of light ever made accurately enough to show it. The observer in the station observing when light from the strikes reach the observer on the train can see that they do not reach the train observer at the same time based on the same constancy of light speed. When the strikes occur, the train observer is half way between them as seen from the tracks but, while they are in flight, he moves to a different location so they do not reach him at the same time. The light from the strikes cannot reach-him-at-the-same-time and not-reach-him-at-the-same-time.

If you cannot figure out what had to happen for the observations of both observers to be true, then you won't ever understand relativity.
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[CANGAS]

CANGAS: No huge gaps? What if I could direct you to words that sprang up from Einstein's own hand, that perfectly contradict his Postulate (that light is observed to have the constant speed every time its speed is measured)?

cinci: Direct me to anything you wish. The postulate is where he starts. What I said was the logic that follows it has no huge gaps.
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CANGAS: In Einstein's exposition of Relativity Of Simultaneity we read of a Rider On The Train who has measured his location with his own hand-carried yardstick and knows that he is standing exactly at the middle of the car. The author winks at us and grins and tells us that He knows that the lightning strikes are really simultaneous.

cinci: If "He" is the rider on the train, he doesn't tell him that at all. He tells you, the reader, that the strikes are simultaneous for the observer in the station who is not on the train and he tells you why they are simultaneous for him. The purpose of the thought experiment is to decide if the stirkes are simultaneous for the rider. And even if you think he told the rider they are simultaneous for the rider, then the rider will conclude he is wrong.
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CANGAS: Yet, the lightning strike light flashes travel across equal distances but land upon the Rider's eye at different moments. The lightning strike flash light has come from the East in less time than the lightning flash light has come from from the West.

When something travels across the same amount of distance in a different amount of time than another something, we rely on bedrock basic logic and say that one of the somethings went faster than the other.

cinci: Your basic bedrock logic is wrong. If you ask the rider to measure the speed of light from each of the two sources he will find that both are c. That probably violates your bedrock basic logic also, but it is what the postulate requires and it has been experimentally verified.
*******************************************************

CANGAS: If the Postulate were true, the Rider would have detected the lightning strike flashes simultaneously, since they would have maintained the same constant identical speed in getting to him from the lightning strikes which were really simultaneous

cinci: The postulate is true as that fact is demonstated by every measurement of the speed of light ever made accurately enough to show it. The observer in the station observing when light from the strikes reach the observer on the train can see that they do not reach the train observer at the same time based on the same constancy of light speed. When the strikes occur, the train observer is half way between them as seen from the tracks but, while they are in flight, he moves to a different location so they do not reach him at the same time. The light from the strikes cannot reach-him-at-the-same-time and not-reach-him-at-the-same-time.

If you cannot figure out what had to happen for the observations of both observers to be true, then you won't ever understand relativity.
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cincirob, you surely realize that you are simultaneously claiming to believe, and, ignoring ,Einstein's Postulate.

His Postulate says that every observer will always observe the same identical constant speed for light. Do you know what "always" means? Can you say "always"? Do you know what "constant" means? Can you say "constant"?

We are winkingly told by Einstein that the lightning strikes are really simultaneous. Then we are told that The Rider sees the simultaneous flashes cross identical distances in different elapsed times, so that the simultaneous flashes detonate the Rider optic nerve at different moments. This can only be understood as the Rider seeing light travel at two different speeds.

There is no difference between Einstein's Rider On The Train and any other observer who happens to be moving in relation to some source of light. But, Einstein insists that his Rider somehow magickely sees light cross two different length paths at an identical speed but arrive at different moments.

This is just one of the Huge Gaps of logic foisted in Special Relativity. There are more. Want to hear the one about the interferometer, the light beam, and the observer sitting on the Sun?

There are enough Huge Gaps in the logic of the Einstein presentation of Special Relativity to run a fleet of large vehicles through.

[cincirob]

CANGAS: cincirob, you surely realize that you are simultaneously claiming to believe, and, ignoring ,Einstein's Postulate.

cinci: Not even close. Just repeating things the old boy himself said.
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CANGAS: His Postulate says that every observer will always observe the same identical constant speed for light. Do you know what "always" means? Can you say "always"? Do you know what "constant" means? Can you say "constant"?

cinci: Can you say which observer didn't observe the speed of ligh at c?
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CANGAS: We are winkingly told by Einstein that the lightning strikes are really simultaneous.

cinci: We are told nly that they are simultaneous for the observer in the station. Then we are asked if they are simultaneous for the observer on the train.
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CANGAS: Then we are told that The Rider sees the simultaneous flashes cross identical distances in different elapsed times, so that the simultaneous flashes detonate the Rider optic nerve at different moments. This can only be understood as the Rider seeing light travel at two different speeds.

cinci: Nobody says this, except your, perhaps. And that is not the only possible interpretation.
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CANGAS: There is no difference between Einstein's Rider On The Train and any other observer who happens to be moving in relation to some source of light. But, Einstein insists that his Rider somehow magickely sees light cross two different length paths at an identical speed but arrive at different moments.

cinci: Only someone at the middle of the train would have exactly the same experience as the Rider. It's becoming clear you're not going to get this on your own. If the Rider had synchronized clocks at the front and rear of the train and recorded when the stirkes occured in the vicinity of those clocks, he would find that the stikes occurred at differnt times on those clocks. This is a result of the relativity of simultaneity that is illustrated in OEMB. So you see, the strikes occur at different times in the moving frame of the train. Einstein developed the Lorentz transformations to predict exactly how much.
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CANGAS: This is just one of the Huge Gaps of logic foisted in Special Relativity. There are more. Want to hear the one about the interferometer, the light beam, and the observer sitting on the Sun?

cinci: As you can see, no gap in logic is to be found in the train problem, only the brilliant discovery of a secret of nature hidden from our eyes since the beginning of our time. No thanks on the Michelson-Morley experiment, at least until you get this one straight. It's a bit more complicated. Relativity is best understood in the simplest examples then moving to more complicated ones.
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CANGAS: There are enough Huge Gaps in the logic of the Einstein presentation of Special Relativity to run a fleet of large vehicles through.

cinci: A humorous simile albeit inappropriate.
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[CCC]

We are winkingly told by Einstein that the lightning strikes are really simultaneous.

No, we are not. We are told that the observer on the embankment will find them simultaneous; there is no suggestion that this is in any way "more real" than the results found by another observer (e.g. the one on the train).

Then we are told that The Rider sees the simultaneous flashes cross identical distances in different elapsed times, so that the simultaneous flashes detonate the Rider optic nerve at different moments.

No, they cross identical distances in identical times in the train frame, they just start at different times and that's why the rider sees them arrive at different times.

[CANGAS]

CANGAS: cincirob, you surely realize that you are simultaneously claiming to believe, and, ignoring ,Einstein's Postulate.

cinci: Not even close. Just repeating things the old boy himself said.
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CANGAS: His Postulate says that every observer will always observe the same identical constant speed for light. Do you know what "always" means? Can you say "always"? Do you know what "constant" means? Can you say "constant"?

cinci: Can you say which observer didn't observe the speed of ligh at c?
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CANGAS: We are winkingly told by Einstein that the lightning strikes are really simultaneous.

cinci: We are told nly that they are simultaneous for the observer in the station. Then we are asked if they are simultaneous for the observer on the train.
***********************************

CANGAS: Then we are told that The Rider sees the simultaneous flashes cross identical distances in different elapsed times, so that the simultaneous flashes detonate the Rider optic nerve at different moments. This can only be understood as the Rider seeing light travel at two different speeds.

cinci: Nobody says this, except your, perhaps. And that is not the only possible interpretation.
*******************************

CANGAS: There is no difference between Einstein's Rider On The Train and any other observer who happens to be moving in relation to some source of light. But, Einstein insists that his Rider somehow magickely sees light cross two different length paths at an identical speed but arrive at different moments.

cinci: Only someone at the middle of the train would have exactly the same experience as the Rider. It's becoming clear you're not going to get this on your own. If the Rider had synchronized clocks at the front and rear of the train and recorded when the stirkes occured in the vicinity of those clocks, he would find that the stikes occurred at differnt times on those clocks. This is a result of the relativity of simultaneity that is illustrated in OEMB. So you see, the strikes occur at different times in the moving frame of the train. Einstein developed the Lorentz transformations to predict exactly how much.
*********************************

CANGAS: This is just one of the Huge Gaps of logic foisted in Special Relativity. There are more. Want to hear the one about the interferometer, the light beam, and the observer sitting on the Sun?

cinci: As you can see, no gap in logic is to be found in the train problem, only the brilliant discovery of a secret of nature hidden from our eyes since the beginning of our time. No thanks on the Michelson-Morley experiment, at least until you get this one straight. It's a bit more complicated. Relativity is best understood in the simplest examples then moving to more complicated ones.
*************************************

CANGAS: There are enough Huge Gaps in the logic of the Einstein presentation of Special Relativity to run a fleet of large vehicles through.

cinci: A humorous simile albeit inappropriate.
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My dear science colleague cincirob; Do you really believe that anything you wrote in your post makes good logical sense?

Please, sleep it off, assuming that you may not be clear-headed because of excessive fatigue due to overexertion on very important work, or, perhaps accidental overdose of prescription meds, or, whatever. Then, try once again.

Try once again to explain how Einstein can utter a Postulate that says that every observer will always see light go at the same speed.

Then explain how Einstein can say that a Rider On A Train can see light travel across precisely identical distances but arrive at different moments.

[texta]

If you want to do these meaningless discussions please create a separate thread for it.

I'd prefer it if threads I create remain on topic. Thanks for understanding.

[Gerard]

If you want to do these meaningless discussions please create a separate thread for it.

I'd prefer it if threads I create remain on topic. Thanks for understanding.

Gerard: I apologize.

[cincirob]

CANGAS: My dear science colleague cincirob; Do you really believe that anything you wrote in your post makes good logical sense?

cinci: Certainly! Because it would be illogical, I'm not in the habit of writing illogical things. Are you?
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CANGAS: Please, sleep it off, assuming that you may not be clear-headed because of excessive fatigue due to overexertion on very important work, or, perhaps accidental overdose of prescription meds, or, whatever. Then, try once again.

cinci: Thanks for the health tips, but they probably belong on a different forum.
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CANGAS: Try once again to explain how Einstein can utter a Postulate that says that every observer will always see light go at the same speed.

cinci: Oh that's pretty easy. Do you know of any accurate measurement of the speed of light that differs from the value accepted by every Bureau of standards in the world? If not, since all the measurements were made on Earth at differnt times and places, each measurement was made with the measuring apparatus travelling at some fraction of the Earth's speed through the cosmos of 300+ km/sec. Of course this is a paltry .001c, but certainly within the accuracy of any modern measuremtn technique. Einstein didn't have all this accuracy but, being the genius that he was, he was able to deduce it from the meager knowledge available at the time.
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CANGAS: Then explain how Einstein can say that a Rider On A Train can see light travel across precisely identical distances but arrive at different moments.

cinci: Perhpas you missed it in my last post. The explanation is that they left the ends of the train at different times. The well-known and experimentally verified Lorentz transformation for time shows it all mathematically:

t' = (t - vx/c^2)/(1 - (v/c)^2)^.5

Perhaps if you made up some values for the length of the train and substituted them into the equation, the phenomenon would become clear for you. It's all really very simple
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[CANGAS]

CANGAS: My dear science colleague cincirob; Do you really believe that anything you wrote in your post makes good logical sense?

cinci: Certainly! Because it would be illogical, I'm not in the habit of writing illogical things. Are you?
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CANGAS: Please, sleep it off, assuming that you may not be clear-headed because of excessive fatigue due to overexertion on very important work, or, perhaps accidental overdose of prescription meds, or, whatever. Then, try once again.

cinci: Thanks for the health tips, but they probably belong on a different forum.
*********************************

CANGAS: Try once again to explain how Einstein can utter a Postulate that says that every observer will always see light go at the same speed.

cinci: Oh that's pretty easy. Do you know of any accurate measurement of the speed of light that differs from the value accepted by every Bureau of standards in the world? If not, since all the measurements were made on Earth at differnt times and places, each measurement was made with the measuring apparatus travelling at some fraction of the Earth's speed through the cosmos of 300+ km/sec. Of course this is a paltry .001c, but certainly within the accuracy of any modern measuremtn technique. Einstein didn't have all this accuracy but, being the genius that he was, he was able to deduce it from the meager knowledge available at the time.
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CANGAS: Then explain how Einstein can say that a Rider On A Train can see light travel across precisely identical distances but arrive at different moments.

cinci: Perhpas you missed it in my last post. The explanation is that they left the ends of the train at different times. The well-known and experimentally verified Lorentz transformation for time shows it all mathematically:

t' = (t - vx/c^2)/(1 - (v/c)^2)^.5

Perhaps if you made up some values for the length of the train and substituted them into the equation, the phenomenon would become clear for you. It's all really very simple
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cincirob, you are missing a vitally important point.

When the train is sitting still in the station area, the Rider On The Train will see the flash lights at exactly the same moment.

When the train is moving, according to Einstein, the Rider On The Train will see the flash lights at different moments.

So, we have noticed that Einstein has provided us with a fool proof way to enable the Rider On The Train to figure out if he is moving or not.

[cincirob]

CANGAS: cincirob, you are missing a vitally important point. When the train is sitting still in the station area, the Rider On The Train will see the flash lights at exactly the same moment.

cinci: But he isn't sitting still in the station area.
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CANGAS: When the train is moving, according to Einstein, the Rider On The Train will see the flash lights at different moments. So, we have noticed that Einstein has provided us with a fool proof way to enable the Rider On The Train to figure out if he is moving or not.

cinci: What is it?
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[CANGAS]

CANGAS: cincirob, you are missing a vitally important point. When the train is sitting still in the station area, the Rider On The Train will see the flash lights at exactly the same moment.

cinci: But he isn't sitting still in the station area.
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CANGAS: When the train is moving, according to Einstein, the Rider On The Train will see the flash lights at different moments. So, we have noticed that Einstein has provided us with a fool proof way to enable the Rider On The Train to figure out if he is moving or not.

cinci: What is it?
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cincirob, you Silly Goose! You know that sometimes we need to be cheered up and so you generously step up to the plate and act like a complete clown to make us laugh and feel gay! Thank you! It has been a long time since I have laughed so much. I feel much happier now.

[cincirob]

CANGAS: When the train is moving, according to Einstein, the Rider On The Train will see the flash lights at different moments. So, we have noticed that Einstein has provided us with a fool proof way to enable the Rider On The Train to figure out if he is moving or not.

cinci: What is it?

CANGAS: cincirob, you Silly Goose! You know that sometimes we need to be cheered up and so you generously step up to the plate and act like a complete clown to make us laugh and feel gay! Thank you! It has been a long time since I have laughed so much. I feel much happier now.

cinci: I guess that's a difference between us. Being stuck for an answer usually doesn't make me happy. Based on this and other conversations we've had, I imagine you're happy a lot of the time.
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[CCC]

cincirob, you are missing a vitally important point.

When the train is sitting still in the station area, the Rider On The Train will see the flash lights at exactly the same moment.

When the train is moving, according to Einstein, the Rider On The Train will see the flash lights at different moments.

So, we have noticed that Einstein has provided us with a fool proof way to enable the Rider On The Train to figure out if he is moving or not.

No, that's only a foolproof way to tell whether he is moving relative to the station or not. He can also reveal this information by measuring the speed of the station relative to himself; if it is zero, then he is not moving relative to the station.

[cincirob]

CANGAS: So, we have noticed that Einstein has provided us with a fool proof way to enable the Rider On The Train to figure out if he is moving or not.

CCC: No, that's only a foolproof way to tell whether he is moving relative to the station or not. He can also reveal this information by measuring the speed of the station relative to himself; if it is zero, then he is not moving relative to the station.

cinci: You needn't have bothered. I think he's just playing a word game. And if he isn't, then he won't understand anyway.
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